EPA's Shot at the 2nd Amendment

[Five-0]

NRA Warns Against New Gun Control Push ... From EPA - US News and World Report

Reviewing Petition to Ban Lead Bullets
Will the EPA infuriate gun owners--and seal the fate of Democrats on November 2?
BY John McCormack
August 27, 2010 9:57 AM

Will Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Lisa Jackson make a back door move to ban lead bullets the day before the November 2 elections?

Several environmentalist groups led by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) are petitioning the EPA to ban lead bullets and shot (as well as lead sinkers for fishing) under the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA). Although EPA is barred by statute from controlling ammunition, CBD is seeking to work farther back along the manufacturing chain and have EPA ban the use of lead in bullets and shot because non-lead alternatives are available. But here's the catch: the alternatives to lead bullets are more expensive. A ban on the sale of lead ammunition would force hunters and sport shooters to buy non-lead ammunition that is often double the cost of traditional lead ammunition. A box of deer hunting bullets in a popular caliber could be upwards of $55.


So a government agency is trying to make gun ownership prohibitively expensive. This should piss off even the flyover country democrats.

[cajunguy]

There is NO possible way the 2011 elections can get here soon enough!

This November will only be a start.

Hopefully.


.

[Tango Zulu 22]

We have to use non lead shot over watercourses, ponds aand estuaries when duck /goose etc shooting over here in the UK.
Still use lead shot for everything else though.

[MacLean]

We have to use non lead shot over watercourses, ponds aand estuaries when duck /goose etc shooting over here in the UK.
Still use lead shot for everything else though.

Same here, actually - and most hunters don't bitch about it much.

However, banning the lead in all other projectiles would be a tremendous blow.

I can't even imagine how many millions of rounds of ammunition are discharged in this country every year.

[Five-0]

The petition has been withdrawn. Public comment was to be open till October 31st. I'm guessing the left didn't want that in the public conversation that close to the November judgement day.

[snuffy2202]

They better not ban my lead bullets. I just bought 1000 rounds to reload. They are much less expensive than jacketed rounds.

[Odd]

More idiocy. I doubt this will be the last time this idea comes around.

Just curious though, what else are bullets made from? Don't jacketed bullets have lead in them too?

[213th]

The petition has been withdrawn. Public comment was to be open till October 31st. I'm guessing the left didn't want that in the public conversation that close to the November judgement day.

The EPA also said that they wouldn't have granted it as it was outside of their pervue

The Environmental Protection Agency has denied a petition filed by environmental activists seeking to ban lead in ammunition, saying such regulation is beyond the agency's authority.

FOXNews.com - EPA Rejects Calls to Ban Lead in Ammo

[Five-0]

Link:

EPA Surrenders to NRA on Gun Control Issue - US News and World Report

[MacLean]

More idiocy. I doubt this will be the last time this idea comes around.

Just curious though, what else are bullets made from? Don't jacketed bullets have lead in them too?

Most jacketed bullets have lead cores, yes.

They are making bullets out of copper now, and they actually work really well in certain applications.

Shot for waterfowling is made of bismuth or steel when lead is banned.

[213th]

Most jacketed bullets have lead cores, yes.

They are making bullets out of copper now, and they actually work really well in certain applications.

Shot for waterfowling is made of bismuth or steel when lead is banned.

How does the density of the metals affect the performance of the round? A solid copper bullet would be lighter then a lead core bullet, would it not? How about expansion? When hunting you can not use a FMJ round, as it tends to penetrate further. Wouldn't this qualify as full metal jacket even if a solid copper bullet is a hollow point? And wouldn't it tend to expand less?

[MacLean]

How does the density of the metals affect the performance of the round? A solid copper bullet would be lighter then a lead core bullet, would it not? How about expansion? When hunting you can not use a FMJ round, as it tends to penetrate further. Wouldn't this qualify as full metal jacket even if a solid copper bullet is a hollow point? And wouldn't it tend to expand less?

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Copper seems to penetrate deeper and have increased weight retention. It is seeing a lot of success as a self defense AND hunting round.

The bullets are not FMJ, they are controlled expansion hollowpoints. They are lighter than their lead counterparts.

[213th]

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Copper seems to penetrate deeper and have increased weight retention. It is seeing a lot of success as a self defense AND hunting round.

The bullets are not FMJ, they are controlled expansion hollowpoints. They are lighter than their lead counterparts.

But even if it is a hollow point, wouldn't it still be considered full metal jacket? If it's a hollow point, the inside of the hollow is still the same material as the outside. I've always thought of full metall jacket as being that the copper jacket fully covers the exterior of the bullet. You can have a non-full metal jacket bulllet that is not a hollow point, such as soft nosed bullets for a lever action hunting rifle. I just would be really pissed if something like this became required and then someone turned around and said that it wasn't legal for hunting.

[MacLean]

But even if it is a hollow point, wouldn't it still be considered full metal jacket? If it's a hollow point, the inside of the hollow is still the same material as the outside. I've always thought of full metall jacket as being that the copper jacket fully covers the exterior of the bullet. You can have a non-full metal jacket bulllet that is not a hollow point, such as soft nosed bullets for a lever action hunting rifle. I just would be really pissed if something like this became required and then someone turned around and said that it wasn't legal for hunting.

A jacket is a thin layer of metal applied over another substance.

A solid projectile would not be considered possessed of a "metal jacket."

[213th]

A jacket is a thin layer of metal applied over another substance.

A solid projectile would not be considered possessed of a "metal jacket."

So it would be more in the category of a hard cast lead bullet?

[MacLean]

So it would be more in the category of a hard cast lead bullet?

No, it would be a hollowpoint machined from copper.

I'm not certain the categories you are applying are anything formally recognized.

For example, hunting with a fully jacketed lead bullet is not always illegal, even if the terminal performance is lacking.

Hunting with a solid lead bullet sans hollowpoint is actually the suggested method for large bears, for example, or other dangerous game.

Perhaps you could show me which law you are trying to apply?

[213th]

No, it would be a hollowpoint machined from copper.

I'm not certain the categories you are applying are anything formally recognized.

For example, hunting with a fully jacketed lead bullet is not always illegal, even if the terminal performance is lacking.

Hunting with a solid lead bullet sans hollowpoint is actually the suggested method for large bears, for example, or other dangerous game.

Perhaps you could show me which law you are trying to apply?

I'd have to look it up, but when I attended hunters ed in NH, they said that full metal jacket wasn't legal for hunting. I honestly haven't checked anywhere else I've lived as I haven't hunted since leaving NH. It was just the first thing that popped into my head, are they starting with this, and then going to say these bullets aren't legal for hunting? I knew you were pretty well versed in guns and thought you'd probably be able to tell me if it would be classified as full metal jacket or not. Aside from frangibles, I haven't dealt with anything other then copper jacket lead core or solid lead ammunitions.

[MacLean]

I'm pretty sure this move would drive up the price considerably, but a machined copper hollowpoint would still be considered a hollowpoint.

If you could afford them.

[Interceptor]

Here is the actual NH Statute. A solid copper bullet has no jacket and will expand reliably. The spirit behind such a regulation is to prohibit nonexpanding bullets. North American game animals are not especially thick skinned game. Poking a small hole through the animal is not desirable. Even a .223 Rem can be effective on Whitetail deer if the bullet expands well.
African dangerous large game bullet requirements are obviously different than North American game requirements. Buffalo/Bison and Brown Bear can be taken effectively with controlled expansion bullets.

NH Statute

TITLE XVIII
FISH AND GAME
CHAPTER 207
GENERAL PROVISIONS AS TO FISH AND GAME
Definitions, Inclusions, Methods of Taking, Etc.
Section 207:3
207:3 Lawful Methods of Taking. –
I. Wildlife shall be taken in the daytime between 1/2 hour before sunrise and 1/2 hour after sunset with a gun fired at arm's length or bow and arrow, unless otherwise specifically permitted.
II. A full automatic rifle shall not be used at any time nor shall a semi-automatic rifle be used to which is attached a magazine or clip holding more than 5 cartridges, nor shall a full jacketed metal case bullet be used, either in its original form or any alteration thereof.
III. Paragraph II shall not apply to the use of .22 or smaller caliber rimfire firearms.

WI is a little different.....

NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices.
(1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person shall:
(c) Guns and devices
2. ‘Deer or bear hunting.’ Hunt any deer or bear with any air
rifle, rim−fire rifle, any center−fire rifle less than .22 caliber, any
.410 bore or less shotgun or with ammunition loaded with nonexpanding
type bullets
NR 10.11 Elk hunting. (1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person
may hunt elk by any of the following methods:
(e) Rifles. With any .22 rim−fire, 5 mm rim−fire rifle, .17 caliber
center−fire rifle, or with ammunition loaded with full metal
jacket, nonexpanding type bullets.

[bayern]

Well, either stockpile your ammo or switch to Depleted uranium (DU) ammunition. Where there is a will, there is a way.